SPEAKER_02 0:00

It's not easy going into police forces that are, you know, old, established cultures and trying to drive the culture change that we are wanting to see, that the public's wanting to see, that policing wants to see.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Hello and welcome to the Talent Download podcast. I'm Darren Lancaster from Amberjack and it's an absolute delight to be here today. Special guests from Police Now. A little bit about Police Now. Police Now's mission is to transform communities, reduce crime and antisocial behaviour, and increase public confidence in the police service. By doing that means attracting and developing exceptional, diverse talent into roles that many may never have previously considered. So I guess I'll start off. It'll be great just to hear a little bit more about Police Now.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Yeah, I'm happy to. Obviously, you've talked about our mission just there, Darren, but um Police Now is a government-funded charity, and we recruit and train um brilliant and diverse graduates to go into neighbourhood police officer roles to be detectives and to specialise in areas like counter-terrorism and economic crime. And to date we've recruited about 3,000 graduates and uh supported them to go into policing across England and Wales, working with about 37 of the 43 police forces.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yeah, I think I think that's really interesting where you talk about um counter-terrorism and things like that. I guess it's not the kind of traditional uh blue light kind of kind of experience that you're you're looking at in terms of the candidates. Maybe just describe that a little bit more in detail.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Yeah, I mean, we are we want to offer difference to policing. You know, we want to be able to um support policing in um moving forward for the future and delivering for the communities it serves. And by wanting to do that, we look to recruit very different people to the types of people that policing recruits itself who are in the whole, brilliant, but we want to bring people that think differently, that look differently, um, to be representative of the communities they're serving. And with that, we also want to innovate and push and support policing to do things differently within policing and with how they've served the public. So that includes looking at ways to bring in different and brilliant people into the different areas of policing that uh sometimes and previously would have taken years to get to, and where there have been severe shortages of skills. So we're really um as an organization have spent the last decade, we're 10 years old now, we've spent the last decade really focusing on that. How do we support policing to be better, to push the boundaries and to serve the public in a different way, in a better way, in the way that the public expects to be served? Um, and how and how can we bring something different to policing to really help it?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

And and um being a father of uh uh a few children, I've got five, but two that uh are um what one that's in in university at the moment, one that's just come out of university. Um is there a challenge in terms of sort of building up the pipeline um to to kind of get into into roles and dealing with perceptions generally um about what policing may or may not be ultimately? And and I guess how do you deal with that? Is it how's that look?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Absolutely. So from we're kind of a bit polarized in a way. Most people understand what a detective role is, so that's not too challenging to recruit from, but there is the challenge in terms of managing the volume. But actually, many people don't know what a neighbourhood police officer is. So a lot of our work, particularly on the attraction side, is demystifying what that role is and getting people to understand what they could achieve in that and that where the areas that they could still go into specialise in policing after taking a few years in that role. So that's what we do a lot of at the first off. We're also looking for people that haven't considered policing before. So we try and reach out to those without kind of initially kind of sharing kind of who we are, but looking at the skills that they might be kind of thinking about for other roles. So are you interested in problem solving? Are you interested in stakeholder management, partnership work, team building, all of these skills that a lot of people are thinking for other roles are really prevalent in a policing role as well. So we have about 50% of our um cohorts that have never considered a role in policing before don't have family in it, perhaps don't have supporters from their backgrounds either. And that's exactly the people that we're trying to bring into policing for that difference that Claire's already mentioned.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

I was just going to add to that actually. Um totally agree with all of that. And I think the other bigger um big piece to think about is that policing for a lot of graduates is not seen as a career for graduates. You know, there is this question mark about I've done XYZ degree, and why would I use that to go into policing? And actually, what we see uh is in terms of the graduates that we bring into policing and other graduates that have joined policing through other rooms, actually, is using the degree, it could be a music degree, it could be a fashion degree, the range of expertise and skills that people have learned through their degree, through their work experience, not relevant work experience, has such an impact on building relationships with the public, with vulnerable people, with victims of crime. And that to us is just so exciting about you know what graduates can bring into policing. And Katrina talked about there, some of those very key skills that graduates might think you know they want to bring to investment banking, professional services, all the other, you know, career choices for graduates that are up there in the bank's top 100 and other areas. But those skills are as applicable to policing as anywhere else. And actually, you know, the big thing that we do see is those brilliant graduates that come in are on a fast trajectory. This is not a fast track, but we do monitor what happens to our graduates and they rise up the rank, they're rising up the ranks very, very fast in terms of those leadership positions as well as leadership across the front line.

unknown 5:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

And how do you how do you make the the graduate understand, I guess, the career in policing? How how do you go about that and and and I guess talking to them?

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yeah, well, uh we ensure that all of our marketing involves real officers, so our participants on the programme and alumni, and their stories are so powerful. So to kind of Claire's point, the background that they had, but then what they've been doing in their in their role since, the realistic stories of where they've made change, lasting impact, solved crimes, worked with vulnerable victims. It's all of those stories to get people excited about the role. We also make sure that we have a realistic and immersive selection process, as that's where a lot of people are still finding out information about the roles. We we don't do kind of a job simulation first, but through all of the assessments, they're finding out, oh, actually, this is what I could be doing. I could be going into this school and working with different partners, I could be speaking to this victim and working out what I'm going to do next. So that they can either self-select out or get really excited through that process and then decide, no, this is something I'm really keen about. This is something that I want to take that offer forward with and then join the program.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

And you've worked in early careers as a sector and worked for different organisations and looked at that. How does how does it differ for police now in terms of the skills you look for in an individual? I know you talked a little bit about you know the career, you could be in music, you could be in different um different areas of your degree, but uh is it different or maybe it's the same?

SPEAKER_02 7:23

I mean, it is it is very different to lots of the work that I've done in the past. I've been at police now coming up to eight years, and I've been uh working across the graduate recruitment and early careers recruitment sector for a long time, and it is very different in terms of you know, some of the competencies or the skills or the strengths that we're looking for overlap with other graduate schemes, but you have to remember that this is a frontline public service. Um, this is uh involves shift work, it involves not being able to leave at the end of the day because you're supporting a victim of crime in their hour of need. And so, you know, there is a certain type of, you know, we're looking for a certain motivational alignment and why would someone really be driven to join policing? Um, and and and we're looking at resilience and you know, as other grad employers would, but we're having to look at it in probably quite different ways for what does resilience mean to a frontline police officer, a neighbor police officer that's you know supporting someone that's potentially thinking about committing suicide or has is at the worst moment of their life because they've been the victim of domestic abuse, and that type of resilience is probably a little bit different to what other employees might be looking at. Very different, you know. So I think it is different, and it also is, I think that motivational piece is so important. The alignment to what we're trying to deliver as police now, but the alignment to what policing exists to do, it exists to serve the public. You are the public and you're serving the public, and that, you know, the tenacity and resilience that requires, I think is it's something special, and and that's what we see in the graduates with that we bring through actually a real determination. One thing we shouldn't forget is it's not just the difficulty of serving on the front line or serving individuals in their hour of need. You know, let's be honest, policing culture, it's a huge institution in this country, policing is, and policing culture isn't a fire a lot of the time. And there are some valid reasons as to why it isn't a fire. You know, there is, you know, we're we're open in our discussions when we talk to graduates and university students about this as a career option. It's not easy going into police forces that are, you know, old established cultures and trying to drive the culture change that we are wanting to see, that the public's wanting to see, that policing wants to see. And so it's not just about serving the public, it's about calling people out but not doing the right things, the types of people we've seen across the media over the last few years, calling those people out, reporting those people that are your colleagues and saying, this is not how we should be policing, this is not the right thing to do, and I'm going to report you, and you know, this is not acceptable, and so forth. And so the complexity of this is massive as well, in what we're asking people to commit to and do, and bring themselves into that and and try and be true to themselves for the pro, you know, the the most of their time that they are in policing as well. You want them to bring themselves so that they can engage with the public and people like them. So it's quite a complex ask, and so you can't underestimate that ask, I think.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

It's massive. And how do you um sort of the reality of what you just described in terms of of what the role becomes? Do you do you have to uh think about that in the attraction process uh regarding that in terms of getting that message across and and to candidates all where yeah?

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah, we have to be upfront with everything. We'd want to be honest anyway, but it's really important that people understand those realities of the role. It's not a nine-to-fine job, it's 24-7 for shift work, but it might mean that you don't get off um early on a Friday, you miss a birthday, you might not be there at Christmas. They are some of the realities of the role, particularly for those with families, career changes. Um the salary might be a salary job for some people as well. That um it does rise every year. Um but there's also selling the benefits of it. It's a role where you have a really strong pension, you can't be made redundant, which in this market I think is something of interest um in that choice. Um there are it is a kind of clear salary structure, you have a guaranteed rise every single year. Within seven years service, you could be on 50,000. So, from a graduate entry point of view, like there definitely are those selling pieces, but we want people to know what it is and what it isn't. It's not driving around in fast cars. If that's what you want to do, that that it isn't going to be this role. It is really hard work, but it's also so rewarding as well. And thinking how people can bring kind of their talent in. Maybe they've got a mathematics or kind of data science background. That's really welcome in policing for really kind of using data and technology now to really innovate in that space. So um, yeah, it is having that balance that it can be exciting, but we need to tell people the truth about it.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Yeah, I think on that piece, we haven't shied away. And you know, I think it's fair to say that maybe some police forces have shied away a little bit, and we're supporting our partner police forces in being a bit more open and a bit more direct around what things can be like and why there needs to be change, but we haven't shied away from that in our attraction work, in our marketing work. Is Katrina talked about talking about the graduates that are on the programme and their experiences on the programme, and those experiences not only include the crimes and the cases that they're working on, but it also includes some of the scenarios they found themselves, you know, with colleagues and what they've done about those things. And we've brought those things to life. We've called out regularly some of the issues that we see and what we think we can do to help address some of those and support some of those issues. And we talk to graduates and university students about those things. One of the campaigns we toured around campus for the last couple of years really focused in on some of those contentious issues that graduates and university students they want to ask and talk about because they're on their mind, knife crime and uh stop and search, and you know, the disproportionate use of stop and search on black heritage uh people as an example, or things like uh misogyny and sexism and institutional racism across policing. We've toured a campus, you know, toured campuses talking about that with a pop-up that like really leads into that because we want to be open about it and we want to talk about the problems that exist and what what police now exists to try and support and challenge and what the graduates that join through us will be responsible for doing. And so we've been very open about those types of things. Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

And um, I guess moving the conversation on a little bit. I um I come from a family um of three children, so two sisters that basically used to keep me in line, I guess, basically, older and a younger one, but both are in the public sector. So one followed a nursing nursing path, one followed the teaching path, um and and did really well. Um I I sometimes when I I think about kind of following careers around public sectors, sometimes geographies don't always work out necessarily in terms of locations of where you where you need to work and where you're required. Um do you face challenges around that? Is is that something you have to deal with? It'd be good to hear about it.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, I do want to take that one. Yeah, absolutely. I think we so kind of to set the scene, we have a bit of a unique challenge in terms of we don't know who we're going to be recruiting for in the next year until that happens. So that from a starting point is also really hard. So when you're kind of planning your attraction campaigns, we don't know kind of which locations within England and Wales and for how many vacancies. Um so that's kind of something that we have to kind of get on board with, and then looking at kind of what is the volume and where kind of are the students and graduates and career changes and kind of certain hubs. Um, so it's yeah, it's definitely means we have to be really tailored with our approach. Um, we also want to ensure that those that are joining the police are really reflective of the communities that they're serving. So we do a lot of local attraction work as well as kind of national, and that really kind of scales up scales down depending on where we're looking at. Don't often have a problem recruiting for London in terms of the people that want to work there, but perhaps kind of some uh smaller communities, more rural without kind of feeder cities, universities, might be more difficult. So you have to do a lot more of the kind of the local approach. You agree, Claire?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Yeah, I uh totally, and actually we don't have a problem with London now, but actually two, three years ago, when the Met was under immense pressure in terms of performance, in terms of hitting the media with some really awful crimes of the police officers that were in the Met being reported quite regularly. We did, you know, the graduate market responds to that. The graduate market's like, well, I actually don't want to go to the Met at the moment because I'm reading about this culture and about some of these behaviours of really, really, you know, people in policing that shouldn't be in policing. And so we have to respond to that sometimes as well. But uh yeah, we don't the the London Peace isn't usually a problem, but then we are reacting to where there are have been issues or media reports. But yeah, I totally agree with Katrina, you know, different police forces across England and Wales, and there are 43. That's right. There are 43 across England and Wales, and some uh could be quite it could be quite quite comparable. They could be very, you know, urban, uh lots of big feeder cities, as Katrina's talked, which you know, talk to which means more urban type crime, but then there could be some that like are very, very large geographical areas. So you could live in the area of the port, but it could be two hours away to where you might be posted. So we have to think about things like that. Um, but also lots of you know, rural policing, coastal policing can present different types of crime and different types of deprivation and different types of you know poverty that then requires a different approach. So we have to think quite cleverly about bringing some of that to life. You know, you can't we can't be selling, I don't know, one of the uh different powers in Wales as an example. We can't be talking about like examples of case studies from people that are in the Met police, because that's quite that will be quite a different approach, different priorities in that force, different, you know, pressures on that force around what they're trying to achieve for the public in those areas. So we have to be quite clever as well as thinking tactically about getting to the right people. It's then how do we bring to life what the reality of policing would be like within that force area as well, because it's not a one-size-fits-fits-all, it can't be.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

And I guess it's important to um get into communities to get the diversity basically across across those graduates as well. I mean, that's we know the the population of the UK world, we know that there's certain cities that represent um large populations um of different ethnicities uh accordingly. Um so is your general approach national in terms of attraction and trying to bring that in from a diverse perspective? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like diversity is one of our massive drivers, and that's that can be diversity across protected characteristics as well as diversity in people that haven't considered policing, people that have done a big range of degrees that have done different types of work after they've graduated or before they went to university and so forth. So we are looking for real difference, but we are, you know, it is really important, and there's lots of studies that back this up as well. It's really important that the public see people like them, you know, that look like them, that they think they will understand me. And it is really important that the public see that and that builds trust and you know, trust and confidence is at the low the lowest point it has ever been for policing at the moment. And so I think that that couldn't be more important. It does make that more challenging at times because when trust is low and trust is very low within certain ethnic groups, as an as an example, uh Afro, black Afro-Caribbean and Black um African, um, black Caribbean and black African, very, very low trust. And so when you have graduates or university students from those backgrounds, you know, they are they are going to look at police now and be very challenging towards us in terms of well, why on earth would I want to do this as a career? And why my family will go absolutely mad if I tell them I'm thinking of joining uh joining the police after university. And, you know, like why would I want to be part of of that that that community that have not served my community well? And so, you know, diversity is important, and everything we do thinks about that. And we take a lot of, I suppose, we take that very seriously. We take, we know we have a big responsibility for people that we're bringing into policing to support them. One thing is the diversity of what our cohort looks like. The next thing is, well, how are they feeling included? How can they be themselves and bring themselves to policing? And that it that needs a lot of work, and we accept that. But culturally, you know, it's great that what we do in terms of our diversity of our cohorts, but how are we supporting people to stay in policing, to progress in policing, to thrive in policing? And that is a big job for us and for policing to really keep focusing on and moving forward and move the dial on that. So I think, you know, yes, we want to uh think about the forces that we're serving and what the those communities look like. Some forces we serve, it's less about thinking about ethnic minority and it's more thinking it might be a gender piece or it could be around, you know, um, you know, Merseyside particularly had uh a big challenge around the LGBTQ community some years ago. There was a lot of hate crime against that community, and you know, how do you support people that exist in the LGBTQ community? Um, well, we do really well in terms of recruiting LGBTQ plus graduates. So that's about mindset, that's about understanding, that's about being able to engage and show an understanding of how high hate crime and that nature can really impact people's lives and ruin people's lives, and how do we move forward to you know support those people and change that in the Mersey side? So it's just it's different, different angles of diversity are really important, I think. And I think for a long time, you know, policing has very much focused around gender and ethnicity because they are the really have been with the really, really uh underrepresented groups at a at a top level basis, but we're trying to be a lot more sophisticated in our thinking about that. Yes, we do well in terms of we always recruit over 50%, usually around 60% female across our programmes. We recruit 20 to 30 percent ethnic minority uh graduates dependent on. You know, what forces we're working with, if the MET are in as an example, that we would often see a bigger proportion of ethnic minority graduates going into the Met because London is more diverse than other forces as an example. But we are trying, you know, we have tried over the years to be much more uh in the granular detail of this and understanding the challenges, not just for an ethnic minority person, but understanding the challenges that might exist for a Pakistani female, a Pakistani heritage female, for example, might be their challenges would be very different to a uh black African man. Um, and we have to really think about lots of those, you know, intersectionalities and the nuances that exist, whether that be barriers in family, whether that be low levels of trust historically for the police. And and we try and apply that across everything we do, that thinking about what are the barriers, how can we remove them, to try and deliver for our force partners.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

And and and through that, I I get you talked quite a lot about lessons learnt and and what you've done historically in the past. You look you must look at quite a lot of the data in terms of what's coming through at you to kind of work that through. It'd be good to understand some of those experiences that you've had. You you talked those lessons learned, but some of that data you've seen and then how you kind of transfer.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

I think Katrina could talk to us really well. And particularly, I think one of the areas that we really have learned to focus even more on is not attraction and bringing people into the application process, it's how we support them across our selection process and onwards. And we think that's very fundamental to how you bring diverse graduates into policing. So I don't know if you'd like to talk a bit about the learning.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah, I think absolutely you need to be able to understand what you're doing, where it's working, where it's not, to be able to kind of make changes to ensure it's being effective. Ultimately, we want to have the most seamless candidate journey we possibly can and to make sure that there's a fair, equitable chance for anyone to apply and get through our process. Um, and particularly when you look at other industries, but even in policing, and you kind of see results from different processes and you can see inherent biases. But that's everything that we're trying to avoid. And you can only do that with really kind of um uh clear data. So we do a lot and we have a lot of reporting, we build a lot in-house, we use a lot with our kind of suppliers and partners to make sure we can understand all of those processes, but we're constantly tweaking things through our process based on that historical data and knowledge. Um, and we're really proud that we can get to result kind of at the end of a campaign where we do see parity across so many different groups, but we're looking at that at the intersectional level and through so many different areas. Uh, we were mentioning earlier today, kind of an impact on age. Like we everything's digital nowadays. When we've started at Police Now, we did face-to-face assessment centres. Now that's all kind of virtual. We need to make sure that there's no barriers for any group, neurodivergence. We break that down into all these different groups of neurodivergence, um, neurodivergences to make sure that actually can someone come through this process and still be supported and able to thrive through it. So it's really important to have that data to see kind of what are our trends. And it's so interesting to see kind of how each year is changing that we've just kind of run some um analysis on our kind of latest intake. We're currently at the conditional offer stage, and um 30% of those offer holders have spent more than five years out from university, and that's a real change from us to what we've seen previously. We've traditionally had kind of around 60% kind of straight fresh graduates. So now we're really looking at the why. Is that from where we've attracted them? Is that the mix of forces? Is it the locations we've had to do kind of different media because of some of our forces are a bit more rural? Is that why? Is it because we've got a March intake this year rather than a July? It doesn't quite fit with the kind of university timelines. Is that why? And then you can understand what you want to do next year because of that. So it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Yeah. But actually, 70% of those that join us have all had previously graduated, you know, they they haven't come straight from uni. Lots of them are quite fresh graduates, but you know, this year we have seen that rise in graduates that have been out of uni and graduated and working and doing other things for five years plus. So, you know, we really enjoyed that diversity as well, you know, a different form of diversity, but people that have been doing various things, some having families, some having mortgages, you know, some straight from uni, that kind of diversity as well brings quite a lot of uh interesting problem-solving ideas of different of a different nature together when we start the training for the graduates.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Yeah, they're great. And one of the things I was reading that came out um from one of the institutes was the increase of um grad applications that come through at the moment. And I think quite a startling stack was almost like 20 years ago there were sort of 30 applications to one job. I think we're running about 140, 145 uh to one job. Is it the same for you, or are you having to focus a little bit? I know we spoke a little bit about attraction, a little bit the different ways.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

We operate a little bit differently to that, to be honest. So uh we have we have a benchmark that we set uh for our assessment processes. Um and we uh and once people meet that benchmark, we are happy that they are of a high enough quality to join. And we're fairly confident, very confident with that benchmark because we assess at a higher level than policing generally does. So we're assessing at what would be deemed a sergeant level, which is supervisory level rather than entry level. So we are setting a high benchmark. So what that means in terms of how we operate, we operate quite differently, is that when we know roughly how many applications we will need based on previous years' conversions, and obviously we allow a bit of flex in this so that we don't undershoot, but we know how many applications we would need to deliver however many hires. And so we close our applications because we personally at Police Now, I talk, I talk about on behalf of Police Now, I guess we don't really like the idea of allowing way more people to apply than we can give a role to, because we don't think it's responsible and we don't feel that it's a valuable use of graduates' time or a valuable use of taxpayers' money because everything that we do costs the taxpayer money because we're government funded. So we take a different approach so we don't allow applications to keep flooding in when we know we've got enough because we are satisfied that we've set a high enough bar to bring brilliant top-level people in. So our approach is very different to that.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Yeah, and we probably have slightly different eligibility criteria as well because of the nuances of a policing role, they have to go through really stringent vetting. So I think it that probably detracts away from some of the big high volumes that others in the sector would get because people just can't apply for us, and we screen that out before they've even done an application form. Because there's no point candidates also putting time into something, let alone us, if actually it's not gonna be a role that they're able to do. So I don't think from an application perspective, but we're trying to really reverse kind of that trend from an offer-to-hire perspective as well. I think once people have kind of entered our journey and bought into it and spent time and invested that time, uh, they are kind of likely to go through that as well. It's it's not necessarily going to be a speculative application that you might do with quite a few similar firms, perhaps. Uh, this is something you need to be quite committed to, and particularly once you get to the offer stage, it gets quite intense. There's medical, there's fitness, there's vetting, that you have to be engaged in that. Um, so we're we're we're trying to see kind of that we can really maximise those that are joining us through the candidate journey and the pipeline, increasing those completion rates, increasing those attendance rates and that kind of conversion to be really high.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

I suppose I would say though, it's it's not to say we do get thousands of applications, like so um, but we need thousands of applications because of that high benchmark we set. Yeah. So, you know, we we have two points in the we have the application point, actually, the initial application point can screen people out because you know, there's things that might would not apply in other employers, but there's things like tattoos that have to be screened to check their appropriate tattoos to join policing. That that's just one example, but there are other screening things right from the very start that can already drop some people out before we can progress into the immersive assessment, which is the first stage assessment of the recruitment journey. Then we have a big cut-up there in terms of we use that as a really strong screening tool. And then again, then we have the assessment centre, which also gives us a big cut-off. So we do need thousands of applications, but I suppose what I'm saying is we're just not allowing that to rise year on year exponentially because we just don't see the point in that for anyone. Um, and I wonder whether there is an opportunity to have a discussion about this with a range of employers to think about like how are we, how can we all be a bit more responsible to graduates who seem in a state of panic, you know, who seem worried about there aren't many graduate jobs and I'm going to have to apply to 30, 40, 50, all these um bits of research that are coming out from you know the the different partners and agencies in the space. Should we be, you know, how are we telling them there are there are a lot of opportunities, but focus on the ones that you really want, so your applications, so that your performance in the process is really up there, so you're not spreading yourself too thin, and then you can be really accomplished and successful then and not feel this pressure, this anxiety that is clearly is clearly coming through if people are applying for that many roles. How can you possibly do that and finish your degree or have a full-time job having graduated? How can you balance all of that? And I wonder if there is a conversation to be had across, you know, the different leaders in our space about what should we be doing about this and like what is responsible and what is good use of employers' money as well in terms of the cost it, you know, the cost to select to put people through these things when you've just got too many people. So I think there's something worth considering you but maybe a bit off topic.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Well, no, I no, I I can I can I can speak first hand. You know, I've got two of my boys, one one's at U University who just didn't start these placements, went through lots of application uh through that, and one that was coming out of uh university. And um obviously making applications to very high-profile firms sort of in their eye in terms of where they've come from and sort of how I've brought them up in terms of um looking at these prestigious brands and education regarding that. And then they can't understand why uh they're not getting any feedback within the process. Why why would that happen, Dad? What what what kind of what's the situation? Believing, you know, obviously I I I work in early careers, I work in recruitment, recruitment outsourcing. So it's um and me trying to explain that um to him is actually quite relatively difficult for someone in me, even in my position, but you know, I have to be the reality at large applications coming through, keep your focus around what you're doing. I do believe the conversation needs to be there in terms of how we we as um an industry or sector kind of manage that application to really make sure the candidate experience um is returned. I we would uh we obviously talk before podcasts, this doesn't, you know, we have conversations just before uh regarding regarding getting together. Um you d you talk to me, you talk to me about um uh a video you've just uh you you you've just been um doing, experience behind the cameras, you can obviously see that straight away. Um but you you also talked about kind of return on investment for you and and probably you know your teams, people that work around it. And I just just like to understand that a little bit more, I think, in terms of of of how that feels and and and what the the the candidates that you're placing, the grads that you're placing, what the reality is what they're doing uh comes through.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Areen do you want me to kick off on that score? Well, you just mentioned a video, so we will plug here if we can. So the video is part of a wider campaign called Decade of Transformation, and that's because Police Now is now 10 years old. Um, and I mentioned when uh I introduced Police Now at the beginning that we've bought over 3,000 uh graduates, brilliant, diverse graduates into policing. Um but this campaign celebrates the achievements of those graduates, but also some of the you know, not in not just individual achievements, which this does celebrate and talk through the different cases those graduates have, you know, had tenacity to drive through and bring victims of crime justice for. But it also looks at, you know, uh the the overall achievements of police now in that collective view, in terms of how we've spent the money that we are have been given by the Home Office and by uh police forces and what that has achieved in terms of you know ROI, uh social value impact and other things. So just to plug that campaign that's come in, we'd really appreciate everyone to support that decade of transformation, and we will be sharing that with lots of our employer uh contacts, but also uh our partners in the space, including Amber Jack. Um so we will be sharing lots of that with you as we go. But I suppose what what gets us out of the bed, out of bed in the mornings is you know, thinking about like why are we doing this? Sometimes if the media's really awful, there's a terrible news story, a police officer's murdered a young woman, woman or something like this. You know, there's been times like that where it's felt really hard every morning, and you have to get up and you have to continue doing your work. And when you meet the people that have been on our programme, that are on our programme, that are have graduated from our program and are rising the ranks in policing, and they talk to you about some of the crimes, some of the cases that they've worked on. And that's you know, the where where they've saved someone's life or they have attended to someone in their darkest hour of need, a violent domestic abuse, and they've supported a young woman through a period of time, which can be a very long time, um, from a report of a sexual assault um through to it being whether it gets taken to court, and then if it does get taken to court, that can be a long amount of time. And you know, the these graduates they they tell us about these things that they do, and they talk, they're very humble about it, but they talk about you know how long that takes, some of the things that they've seen to, you know, as as they've attended a crime, and then what how they have been there, how they have been a rock to a victim of crime, how they have continued to update them on progress, how they have gone the extra mile to find the evidence to support uh the individual, to partner with an appropriate organisation that can bring support in a different way to an individual. And then they talk about, you know, some of the sentences that they've been able to get for those victims of crime uh when the perpetrators have been found guilty. And that can range from all manner of crimes, you know. I've mentioned, you know, violence against women and girls crimes, but it can be all manner of crimes. It can be hit and runs, it can be theft, robbery, antisocial behaviour, it can be cybercrime and preying on vulnerable elderly people. And the range of things that our participants and graduates work on and the things that they continue to do, you know, that that is a reminder of why you do those things and the importance of having a really good, solid, trusted police service, which we need to drive towards achieving, because we were talking earlier, you know, without a really respected trusted police service that delivers to its the vulnerable people, it delivers to all those that are in our communities in England and Wales and in our society. Without strength there, then you know, what hope is there for general society? And so it is a, you know, it does feel like it's it's a worthwhile thing to do. It always feels like that, even in the darkest times. But those individuals, when you meet them, like we have for the development of that campaign as an example, but when you hear those things coming through, it's a real reminder of the good that policing can do and why it's so important to bring excellent, really committed people into policing.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

I don't know if you wanted to add anything, Katrina, but it's Yeah, I think the nature of being kind of a public service organisation, obviously, we don't have unlimited funds, and that's something that so for me as a member of the senior leadership team and a head of department, I want to make sure that all of my team really understand the value of every pound that we kind of get from the UK taxpayer in effect from our funding, that how we spend that wisely. Um so we really have to be clever about what we invest into. We can't have unlimited platforms and services. There are loads of things that we'd love to do that we just can't. Um, so it's really important that we maximise everything that we're doing and the the quality of the service that we give as well. That it should be kind of a two-way charter with a candidate. Um, and we really put a lot of emphasis in that high-quality service that we can do so that people join us on that journey. We have kind of one-to-one kind of contact with a recruitment officer that's really important to support candidates. Single things that we we can't go to every campus that we'd like to kind of from a university perspective, is that how do we get there in a different sense? Like, how can we be online? What's our presence? What different things can we do to kind of let people know about us and the great things that are happening, um, get that out there kind of with news, media outlets and things so people hear about this as an opportunity to then really have kind of true return investment for our stakeholders as well, um, for kind of seeing the great things that people are doing, but also knowing that we're really valuing kind of the investment that we have through our process.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Yeah, I think that's like the key. There are different ways to uh view ROI, right? So, you know, there's the you know when you're in the board meeting and you're being grilled as to why you're spending that amount of money on X, Y, and Z, and then being very knowledgeable about what how how that's led to the cost per hire, and they're they're really important things for us, and particularly important given that we are UK taxpayer funded and it's something we pay a lot of attention to. But then there are all of those, you know, the anecdotal stories that you just think have like you know, you know, that's that overlays that you've got the money side there, which obviously you can't exist without keeping a very close eye on that money side. But those anecdotal stories, and then when you put that into a collective, all those things that are happening, and then you add that all together, you know, systemically, that is the way that you try the change that we're trying to see that will will give the results and will give that experience for the younger generations and your children's children's and other, you know, other others growing up and coming through where you want them to live in a world that actually does feel safe and better and you know, something to be optimistic about. And so I think it is that range, the the range of pieces that are so important to bring together. And I suppose I did want to mention, I think it is really important to mention, whilst we think about all of those things, and whilst we're 10 years old, which is quite young for lots of organisations, but you know, when we've both worked at police now a long time, it probably feels like longer at times. But I think what we have really valued and we are very appreciative of is all the partnerships that we have had, and whether that be with the police forces who work very closely with us, because we're obviously bringing people to them, but the partnerships like Amberjack and others across the sector who have, you know, the reality is we have had favours from the sector at times. We, you know, we are government funded, and we all know that the nature of government funded can be up and down, um, some tighter is and others, and we have really relied on partners that, you know, really support our mission and what we're driving to achieve, believe in that, believe they want to be a part of it, and have found ways to support us at difficult times. And I think you know, ROI comes in so many different forms, but we never forget that. And I think it's really important that we say and put on record that we recognise that and we see that from a range of people that we work with in the sector. So we are very grateful as an organisation and as individuals in the sector as well to have that support.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Good. And um future, future thinking. So, what's the future for police now over the next couple of years, a few years? What how do you see it all playing out?

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Um, one of our strengths is our agility, and so we really have to react to kind of the changes in police and the demand. So we've we've had a heavy kind of neighbourhood policing focus. There was a neighbourhood policing guarantee, and recently in this Labour government manifesto, whereas previously we've been looking at a lot of detector vacancies. So we're really kind of keeping an eye on where those trends are, both from a government perspective but also within police forces. Um, as Claire mentioned, we've got these new specialisms that we've been ingraining for the for the last two years. So, economic crime, we're hoping that that will expand further, counter-terrorism. We're now in three different regions across England and Wales. Um, we're starting to look at what further specialisms um we can kind of um expand into as well. Would you like to talk about that?

SPEAKER_02 43:13

I'd love to talk about that. Yeah, um, I I've spent quite a lot of time working with a few others, but uh Katrina sort of references the innovation point being so key to police now, particularly if we're to offer difference to policing and keep moving on on that journey with policing. But one of the specialisms that we're really focusing on at the moment, and we hope we will be funded to um you know properly deliver on now, is um to support the government's uh dedication and commitment to halving violence against women and girls over the next decade. So um we are looking to develop a specialism around the Aquinym VOR, which is violence against women and girls, and really thinking about we our officers, whether we bring them in for neighbourhood officer roles or detective roles focusing on counterterrorism and economic rights. Or general investigation. They all are focused on the types of crimes that come under the Borg umbrella. But we would like to actually bring people in that are motivated solely by focusing on these types of crime to really support the government's ambitions to half that. And that would be, you know, that ranges from all manner of things from the very difficult domestic homicide type situations all the way down to very early type 4 crimes that are happening, you know, increasingly more often through the use of the internet and online now in terms of different things like you know stalking and uh the use of AI in placing girls in different types of pictures and you know, just the range of things. It would it's a full range, and that requires both proactive policing and reactive policing. You know, I mean, when I talk about proactive policing, I talk about thinking about young boys that might have not have the right influences around them in this day and age and how policing can intervene in some of that education work and support work for young boys at school falling into the wrong crowds versus, you know, the kind of later on in life, the harder types of crime that, you know, that have built and built and built over the years, and the investigation that might need to be done around that. So the projective piece to try and prevent and educate. And then when those crimes happen, it's how can a woman be or a girl be supported in terms of dealing with what's happened and being bought, you know, brought some justice around that through really good, solid investigation. But the support that's needed to help a person talk about what they've been through and give the evidence and stay and want to progress with you know, finding justice for themselves. So that's that is a complex issue and something we're really excited about that we think graduates will really get behind and we'll have some graduates that will really want to do brilliant work in that. And so that's something exciting for us. And then we're also looking at uh the potential of a fast track. So for our neighbourhood route, our neighbourhood specialism, is is there a the potential to do something like a seven-year programme rather than the two-year programme we do now that really takes someone from the constable level all the way up to inspector in a short amount of time? So good.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

And and and for you in the future, because I I uh doing doing these podcasts, I I AI always comes up for me, and you you've you've obviously got experience within the sector and seeing that. What what's your perspective of that for the future, not just as police now, but generally, I guess for for early careers, how do you see that kind of influence in us for the future?

SPEAKER_01 46:49

I think it's there's definitely the piece of recognising that it's here and not shying away from it. Um there's there's something around how to position just right with candidates of where they should be using it and where we'd welcome that, and where actually those skills that they can have from being of an age that they've been educated in kind of AI and computer literacy more so than others, how we can bring that into the service. So uh there's I think we're gonna see a lot more about kind of where perhaps applications form, research, uh um uh interview preparation that we'd encourage kind of use of that versus in assessments where actually we need to be clear that this won't be acceptable and being kind of really clear around that. But from our perspective in terms of the sector we're in, policing needs people that understands AI because actually it's going to be so helpful in solving crime, um, looking at data, kind of protecting the vulnerable, because there is so much kind of in the back office side that is going to use that. So people having those skills as well. And then from our perspective as recruiters, uh, where can we use that to continue to enhance kind of our um candidate journey and our experience that we're providing? We already give kind of feedback to every candidate, but is there anything that we can do more so kind of with that to make it tailored to them? Perhaps do we've kind of said that we're a smaller team, we have limited resources. So, where can we leverage AI to really kind of help support that and maximise the opportunity that we have within our team to do more for less? So that that would definitely be my thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

I mean, there's an it's interesting about like obviously you've got the candidate side, particularly that Katrina's talked about, but you know, it's quite exciting, I think, in terms of uh the the use of AI and how it can, you know, enhance how we select. And obviously, I think we'll always need to be very, very um alert to things like adverse impact. Um, we've got to always remember that AI has come from somewhere and it's been developed somewhere, and that itself can lead to certain biases, and we've got to watch for that across the selection process, like we would do with any selection process. But it is exciting to think about what that could enable us to do, um, like what that could enable to happen in terms of our you know, the hours that we were in things and you know, you know, the range of the range of options that gives as well. I think, you know, in terms of things like attraction work or uh copywriting, or I think that I I mean, I just don't think we should shy away from the fact that it can like save a lot of time. You obviously have to be looking at what's coming out of it and thinking, you know, is that actually saying something that's correct about this program, or is that saying something that's correct about policing? Does that feel right? But it can enhance things, it can help. And so I think we have to be open-minded. And I just think we have to be also very ready to be questioning it, checking, you know, and and but but using it for in its fullest, but not being, you know, totally reliant. Yeah, don't be reliant and don't be foolish to think that oh, I'll tap something in and then let's just whack that out on some advertising. Like I, you know, it's it's use these things with care, but like embrace, I think, on those pieces. And and the big thing I think for the candidate side of things is just be really honest and clear about expectations. Like, if you're not going to put something on your website or in your candidate support material for their selection process that is really clear about when is appropriate to use AI versus when isn't, then like they're gonna they might use it. Like, why wouldn't you? Like, so be really clear about your expectations. Um, because you know, it is part of the world now, it's part of how people go through university and how they do their research and how they plan their submissions, you know. So they're using it. So let's embrace that, but be really clear to them. And that's I think that's all the candidates want is the clarity to know where they can and they can't.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Agreed. I couldn't agree more. So uh probably my final thought, final question uh to you both. Um you're very passionate, uh, you can be saying, I think hopefully listeners have have heard that. But what what makes you most proud about your current role? To each of you.

unknown 51:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

It's hard to think of you know one thing. There are so many things. I think um A couple's fine.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

I think at the 10-year point, and given that Katrina and I have been here for the majority of that 10 years, it's that Peace Now still exists ten years on, because it was a very small idea and a very small organization uh 10 years ago, and what we've achieved in that decade in terms of, I suppose, employer brand recognition, but all the recognition recognition we've had from the sector across the range of the range of things that we do, you know, makes you feel really proud and accomplished personally and professionally, in terms of what I and others have brought to that. So that that that feels proud. It feels proud that Police Now is still very relevant and getting a bigger and bigger voice across early careers, but also across policing. And you know, to have any influence to make some of that change, it's really importantly have a bigger voice. Um, and I I would just say I I feel like I personally feel really proud of what has been achieved in terms of the people that we've brought into policing and how they've supported those that were already in policing or coming into policing, how they work with those people, and how how you know the results that you see from that that aren't reported more widely alongside the really negative headlines about policing. But I feel really proud that I'm a part of that and I'm a part of something that will mean something and does mean something to lots and lots of people, even if they don't realise it. It that feels something to be very proud about.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

I love that. Not to try and echo, I think it's my so my background was slightly different. Um, I wasn't from a graduate recruitment background, I was actually in policing, um in a police staff role, and I was looking to join as a police officer myself and stumbled across police now right in its inception at that um kind of uh year zero kind of point. And I thought, well, I could just be one person joining policing, but this is an opportunity to bring more in. And and as we've alluded to, that kind of nearly three and a half thousand officers that we brought in across so many forces in England and Wales, that butterfly effect of how much we have done rather than just kind of being one person is something I'm kind of so proud of. Um, but also the fact that we've built this together and our police now started. We had kind of two co-founders who were serving officers, and then we became a charity. And and I was one of those first uh group of people that started it, and we were in one little room, we didn't even have chairs, there were cardboard boxes, and we have created everything that this 10 years had been with a large group of people that have joined us along the way, and we've kind of alluded to partners as well. But the fact that we can have ideas and bring them in, and and not just ourselves and kind of the positions we are now, but everyone within the organization, from our kind of coordinators all the way up, can say, Can we try this? And we say yes, and we're really not afraid to be bold, to be different, to innovate, to try and to to make mistakes and to learn from them. But that's what I'm always proud about is that someone can say, Shall we do this? and we do it, and it sometimes it goes really well, and that's been someone's idea, and there hasn't been the levels of bureaucracy things that you you perhaps have in other sectors, and that's something that kind of makes me really proud of our team as well.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

I would say I do I do think, and you know, I don't want to sound big headed, and this is not intended to at all, but I do think police now punches well above its weight in terms of what it delivers, and hopefully, you know, we talk about supporting policing and uh thinking about doing things differently. And I hope that we've done that actually for some of our other employer peers across the sector that I think at times, and I've had people come to me and say, we want to do something like this, and can you explain this? And I I feel like that's something to be proud of that we can and and we've said others have happened, but I hope that Police Now is able to help other employers think differently and think innovatively um as well. So, you know, that that's something that hopefully we can take away with us too.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

Good. I I said it was my last question. I've got a bit of fun now. Um so quick fire, a few questions to you. You can answer in one word, okay. Sometimes allow two, but you can uh in one. Um can do it together, same time, do on your own. Let's see who goes first around it. So uh, first question one word that sums up the police now mission.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

Ambitious.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

I would have had that.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

You would have had that, the same one. Okay, next one. The skill you most admire in your participants resilience, tenacity, tenacity, really resilience, great. Uh the biggest myth about working in policing.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

That it's for stale pale males.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

That's it. I'll allow that. That's okay, I'll allow that. And finally, one piece of advice for someone considering applying for police now.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Be yourself.

SPEAKER_00 55:59

Yeah, good. Well, listen, it's been an absolute pleasure having you um today. Uh Amber Jack, delighted to be working with police now. I I think it if you can hear the passion from you both in terms of your role and to to do that and be a part of that every day, uh must be a real pleasure uh to wake up to. So I thank you very much for your time. Uh appreciate everybody listening today, uh, and we'll speak again very soon.